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[技巧與練習] Jeff Berlin與節拍器

Jeff Berlin與節拍器

對於Jeff Berlin認為不應該跟節拍器練習的論點似乎大部分的人剛聽到都會覺得有點匪夷所思。

這是一篇Jeff Berlin專訪的摘要,原文出自http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=121376

And you never did it with a metronome? Can you clarify your thoughts that has been discussed in your Bass Player Magazine column?

I never practiced with a metronome because I knew that time was an internal thing. Good time comes about from understanding music internally. If you here it internally the external part, what you hear from other musicians, is easy to understand and function with. It is nothing.

The other day my seven year-old son was sitting on the couch and was clapping on the two and four while singing a melody against the rhythm and his time was perfect. Look at someone tapping their foot to a song. Usually it is right in beat, either on the one or the two. They didn't acquire this talent by tapping their foot with a metronome. This is what my seven year-old son also proved; that most people have a really good natural time sense. They just don't know what it is or what it means. They only know how it FEELS.

It's been proven too many times to me. All those articles about how to use a metronome in 30 different ways will not help you to accomplish what they says they will help you to accomplish, which is to help the musician to have good time. Here's another thought about this. Name any drummer in the world with metronomic time. Name any bass player with the same ability. If you can't do this, then the metronome is an unrealistic tool unless you use it realistically.

So then the best way for a musician to learn is to just get in there with other musicians and just play.

Certainly every great player in rock, jazz or blues got their sense of time by playing with other musicians, listening to music and practicing. If you want to rock out, you don't need to spend a penny on any kind of rock educational video or handgrip. Just play regularly with three or four other guys that think along the same musical lines as you do. Buy CD's of your favorite players and learn from what you hear. Rock music, in fact, live music in general is not about academia. It is about non-academia. It is about expression and feeling. Jazz is the same way, by the way.

其實就像他所有其它富爭議性的論點一樣,在詳細解釋過後其實我真的都覺得他會這麼講是有他的一套道理的。只是是否這些論點真的有他所堅持的那麼不可動搖,恐怕就是見仁見智了。
jay-something.blogspot.com

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回覆 #1 jaysomething 的文章

呵,超級不同意,完全不同意,真正不同意。
Jeff Chang
個人部落格   http://jazzsaxjeffchang.blogspot.com/

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呵呵!!
其實他有時候也會用啦~~~
這是江大說的~~~
~ Just L☆ve B@ss ~

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回覆 #1 jaysomething 的文章

他是真的沒看過打拍子越打越快的人嗎?
也許每個人都有一個自然的律動,可是如果沒有經過訓練,這樣的律動通常是很不穩定的,我想大家都記得第一次跟著節拍器練習,要保持拍子的穩定有多難吧?他7歲的兒子雖然不是樂手,可是從小聽到看到很多好音樂與樂手,也許律動自然會比一般的小孩要穩定。
而且自然的律動穩定並不代表在演奏樂器時的律動或拍子就一定會穩定,演奏樂器時保持身體與頭腦的清晰平衡也是需要經過長時間的訓練,不用節拍器也許能達到同樣的結果,可是那要花多少時間啊。
總之,不同意。
Jeff Chang
個人部落格   http://jazzsaxjeffchang.blogspot.com/

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哈哈,就是這個小鬼嗎?
滿溫馨的片段。
Jeff Chang
個人部落格   http://jazzsaxjeffchang.blogspot.com/

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引用:
原文由 JeffSax 於 7-2-2009 02:39 發表
他是真的沒看過打拍子越打越快的人嗎?
以教會唱歌的情形來說,通常是越唱越慢的,而且是屢試不爽的;
然後因為群眾整個都慢很多,逼得司琴不得不妥協也跟著慢下來……
除非指揮跳出來對著會眾糾正速度,然後又有人會去看指揮~~~

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回覆 #6 hitantc 的文章

越來越慢是不是因為大家都在等別人先出聲, 再跟唱, 所以越等越慢, 若有一個帶頭會唱的把歌唱快, 那麼全體都會跟著唱快, 下次你可以試試看, 很好玩的, 我們這團也是這樣的, 誰都不敢出第一聲, 等別人吹了,才敢跟著出聲

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回覆 #6 hitantc 的文章

唱歌的,尤其是合唱團,很容易變慢,因為他們從來不用節拍器練習。
Jeff Chang
個人部落格   http://jazzsaxjeffchang.blogspot.com/

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回覆 #6 hitantc 的文章

說從來不用有點太誇張啦,不過很多業餘歌手都有為求音色不惜犧牲節拍的通病,常為了換氣呼吸與發聲的正確,每個句子都會拖拍或是變慢,尤其是有在學聲樂的。
Jeff Chang
個人部落格   http://jazzsaxjeffchang.blogspot.com/

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回覆 #9 JeffSax 的文章

詩班的的確會有為了要求呼吸與發聲的正確而延遲的通病,
有時候也真的會為了"美聲"而有尾音拖長的壞習慣在,
常常也看到指揮得要一直矯正速度指快一些的動作出來;
不過我上面倒不是專指詩班而言,
而是整個禮拜中會眾一起齊唱時就會有頗嚴重的拖慢習慣(從北到南都這樣)……
當過教會司琴的多少都有體會過其中的痛苦吧~~

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回覆 #7 ztdent 的文章

不過這種齊唱是會有鋼琴或是風琴在彈著帶旋律及伴奏的呀……
應該不只是不敢先唱出來的問題而已吧~~
(或許也因為是長老會……又長又老的關係??)

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回覆 #10 hitantc 的文章

最有趣的是跟有學過一點聲樂的媽媽們唱卡拉ok,她們怎樣都跟不上小白球跳字的速度,常常唱的我一肚子火。
Jeff Chang
個人部落格   http://jazzsaxjeffchang.blogspot.com/

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回覆 #12 JeffSax 的文章

對啊對啊,有點像是這樣的情形……(跟年紀有沒有關係啊??)
BTW,Jeff老師您怎麼會和媽媽們去唱卡啦OK咧??

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回覆 #13 hitantc 的文章

因為妹妹們不想跟我去。
Jeff Chang
個人部落格   http://jazzsaxjeffchang.blogspot.com/

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回覆 #14 JeffSax 的文章

Jeff快回來吧~
美國居然只有媽媽桑要跟你唱卡拉OK
回台灣再開個猛虎, 我看辣妹粉絲會搶著找你去唱

回到正題
那位老兄的論點就像是在講天才與木材似的
如果每個人都生而有這種對拍子的天份
就不會有跳舞同手同腳或手腳不諧調的人
交響樂團也不用指揮了
大家就心領神會看著辦

能走上音樂的路大都也是從小經過無數訓練, 聽過學過無數東西才造就的
天才多也是99%的努力才變成的
真的天才....很少耶

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回覆 #14 JeffSax 的文章

不過先跟妹妹們的媽媽打好關係的確是個很不錯的招喔,
想當初我也是先跟我(當時的)未來岳母甚至岳祖母打好關係,
然後就無往而不利了~~~

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This is completely bogus. Jeff Berlin can say that because he probably have good natural sense of time, but most people need to work on it.   It's like saying someone with perfect pitch saying you don't need ear training.

How do you know if you are doing your polyrhythms right if you are not doing it against of metronome?  How can you make sure you don't lose count when you are working on odd time signature like 5, 7.. esp if you are playing over the barline stuff on top of that?  how would you work on playing on top of the beat or behind the beat by yourself without the metronome? The better you get, the more important the metronome becomes.

Also Jeff Berlin is lucky to be around other musicians who has good time.. he doesn't realize that a lot of people, including working musicians don't have really good sense of time and you can't really rely on that.  A solid drummer is like rare diamond.  A lot of student bands rehearse horrible time and they don't even realize it until someone steps in and tells them.

All I can say is, most students who practice without metronome usually have horrible time.  I think Jeff Berlin doesn't see the fact that his learning ability and his enviroment is much different than most people.

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Yes, I do enjoy the "comping" from metronome while I'm practicing~~~
It sounds like I'm not alone.
^^
~ Just L☆ve B@ss ~

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回覆 #18 bassgally 的文章

I remember the first thing my teacher said in the lesson was.. 'get a metrononme"!!

by the way just want to add that a lot of people's time problem are closely related to tension.  It's the muscle tension that makes you jerk foward or hesitate and make you play unevenly. And there is also that mental tension of being nervous and wanting to rush or drag.   

The problem is that most people do have tension issues, and we don't really know how to fix it. A lot of people don't even realize they have tension issue.  They are so used to practicing that way don't even realize its wrong. So it would be horrible for those kind of people to practice without the metronome.  For some people, they cannot tell the difference between playing in time and out of time, or they may be so used to the tension/rushing problem that they think that's what's normal and natural.

I guess if you can overcome that then maybe practicing without the metronome is okay, because you can let your natural sense of time come out.  After all you have to be able to trust in your natural sense of time when you play.  But it's not bad idea to check with the metronome just to make sure.. esp if you are doing something very complex rhythmically.  whether you have the metronome on or not, you should be able to play in time effortlessly, and metronome should not be a clutch.

Like any advice, you really need to understand the context and not apply it as universal rule.  What Jeff Berlin is right in certain ideal context.. and can only be applied in specific situation.  It worked for him probably because he didn't have the same kind of obstacle as others did, like tension.  I can say that about people who tell others that you should learn jazz from just transcribing.. the problem is that most people don't have the ear to even begin transcribing.

[ 本文章最後由 JasonHayashi 於 7-3-2009 04:54 編輯 ]

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Jeff Berlin 與...Scott Henderson/Dennis Chambers

今天在PTT上看到的消息...
Scott Henderson/Jeff Berlin/Dennis Chambers 三重奏將在 10/22(四)在西門河岸演出~

我會帶著JB的所有專輯跟教學帶去給他簽名的科科

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 23 12
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